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Tuesday, October 18, 2011

vavim in Reb Reuvens csav




Here are examples of Reb Reuvens csav, the above is a typical vav he wrote. And the additional pictures below show this as the majority of his vavim.



But some of his vavim [examples below], the top part of the rosh barely extends left past the regel. If looking at the vav in general, it looks as the head and foot are one natural continuation [kav mashuch], and only the lower part of the rosh is extending outward. These resemble somewhat the vav posted by Dovid before.


 

6 comments:

  1. I think if you go up from the left side of the regel and follow the angle of the regel up through the rosh, you will find there is a substantial part of the rosh, not just the shpitz, that protrudes. However in dovids case if you did that if you did that, only the shpitz protrudes, so its far worse, although it is a thick, mamoshesdike shpitz(almost a triangular shape) which I should think is enough to make the vov fixable.

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  2. it seems like some letters of this ksav are mamash border line kosher, so if a sofer would copy this ksav even %99, it can be pasul.
    i often wonder: why r' reuvein wrote that way?

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  3. Heshy, I dont know to which letters you mean that are borderline. If you specify i will try to comment, because i regard highly of Reb Reuvens csav. Please write which letters and why you feel are problematic. Because i have learned so much from this csav, to my opinion he was well learned or taught in both the hallacic area and tecnical area of the csav.

    In regard to the vav, I think the issue of kav mashuch in vavim and vavim parts of letters wasn't established yet (see what I wrote on 'lamed kav mashuch' that Ari and I debated)
    Reb Reuven lived more than 200 years ago, and it seems the first to come out with the kav mashuch in regard to lamed and so, was much later. See Lishkat hasofer 5:17 on the lamed issue.

    Another interesting point is that the Tikun tefilin p. 98:
    הויו יכתוב כך הראש בשוה ויעשה לו פנים שוים למעלה ולמטה, ולא קצר למעלה כי כתיבה תמה תהיה ולא שבורה וחצאית...
    the simple meaning includes a vav as a kav mashuch, or the type of vav R. Reuven does that the פנים are not שוים, rather קצר למעלה.
    There is much to debate on this issue, in general i am quite sure the Alter Rebbe when composing his SA, didnt have the tikun tefilin available (it was first printed 1796), so its highly possible that his student R. Reuven didnt have it either.

    I agree to what Eli wrote that these vavim are much better than the one posted by Dovid.

    I would like to continue some of these issues mentioned, but time is running out.
    Thanks to Eli for creating this forum, Good Yom tov to all.

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  4. 1) Heshy hit the nail on the head in his comment: It is no secret that if one wants to write Ksav Chabad in both an authentic and halachic manner one must be very skilled and expert.

    I have seen many very talented sofrim trying to write ksav chabad and mimick reb reuven's ksav but due to lack of knowledge and experience, they make fundemental halachic errors. The case of the vov posted by Dovid a few days ago is a classic example.

    As a rule, I do not sell ksav chabad unless it is written to a high standard. A chabad consumer is much better off buying a halachically "safer" and more mehudar arizal ksav than an "iffy" ksav chabad.

    2) Rabbi Weiner writes: "In regard to the vav, I think the issue of kav mashuch in vavim and vavim parts of letters wasn't established yet (see what I wrote on 'lamed kav mashuch' that Ari and I debated). Reb Reuven lived more than 200 years ago, and it seems the first to come out with the kav mashuch in regard to lamed and so, was much later. See Lishkat hasofer 5:17 on the lamed issue."

    In general, Chabad today is unquestionably more meikel about kav moshuch and sofek kav mashuch than the velt. In part this is due to the famous teshuvah of the Tzemach Tzedek zy'a who allows fixing through hasofas dyo.

    Rabbi Zirkind Sh' once told me: "Sofek kav moshuch is a B'nai Braq concpiracy"

    A freilichen yomtov to one and all

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  5. I remembered now that also the Alpha Beisa (copied) in Beis Yosef says [probably his source was the tikun tefilin]:
    ויו .. ופניה שוים שאם יהיה באלכסון לא תהיה כתיבה תמה כי אם שבורה. This point is also mentioned in Agur (source as above from TT) and the Alter Rebbe definitly saw the BY.
    I wrote about this in osios harav p. 122-3.
    Bezras Hashem, maybe to continue after the chag.
    Chag sameach

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  6. I am advancing a thought in regard to the vav problem mentioned:
    It seems the Alter Rebbe in his SA doesn’t mention and accept the point פניה שוים written in Tikun tefilin and Alfa Beisa (BY), since this point in the three letters vav, yud, caf, that AB and BY wrote פניה שוים was not copied by the Alter Rebbe.
    Therefore we see in csav chabad a general difference in all letters from the regular csav. The regular csav has a square and straight face, example; the yud and vav are totally square on teir left side, this is called פניה שוים. But in csav chabad the face of the letter is circled inward with a tendacy of the lower shpitz slightly extending further left [a tiny bit] more then the top of the rosh (panim). Therefore the panim of the letter are not equal or straight, as required by AB,BY.
    So, it isnt simple to call this vav (including the one Dovid showed) a kav mashuch. The kav mashuch is pasul because of the lack of the form of a separate head אין לו צורת ראש, leaving it a golem uncomplete letter. In this csav the rosh is unique because of its opening inner circle and kotzim, that show a face "panim" of the letter in distinct from the regel, although if measured or looked at another angle the [the major part/ink of] rosh isnt protruding from the regel.

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