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Wednesday, July 4, 2012

csav ari zal ??

Yesterday Peretz posted pictures from a sefer tora, and here are some of them.
The csav is a quality csav, and the shape of the letters are csav Ari, but the shemos where written without the cavanas hacsiva according to the ari !!

Quite interesting !??



 

16 comments:

  1. If memory serves me correctly, whereas the Kesses Hasofer and the Mishnas Sofrim (in the Mishna Berura) specify how to write Ksav Ari zal, nowhere do they mention anything about the kavanos or special way of writing the shem Havaya. I would infer from its absence that:

    a) the two are totally separate inyanim,
    b) that the special way of writing the shem Havaya is not for everyone to do.

    I have heard from chosheve Sofrim that if one is not sure that:

    a) he will have the right kavanos,
    b) he will follow the procedure exactly,
    c) he will be able to write neatly,

    then it is better to write the shem Havaya normally (being mekadesh it, of course).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. " a) the two are totally separate inyanim,
      b) that the special way of writing the shem Havaya is not for everyone to do."

      * these 2 points - are quite contrary to what is written in cisve ha'ari.

      "I have heard from chosheve Sofrim that if one is not sure that:
      a) he will have the right kavanos,
      b) he will follow the procedure exactly,
      c) he will be able to write neatly,
      then it is better to write the shem Havaya normally"

      maybe accepted, but then this isn't csav ari !!!!!

      It utterly doesn't make sense to shape some of the letters the way the Ari holds, when the writing of the shem that the ari is more makpid [also in sefer tora and mezuza] that the shem must be written according to the the cavana. The source to this way of writing is from the Zohar as quoted by Ari.
      And there it says that one that doesn't write accordingly it is pasul !!! (see Kol Yaacov 276:6. And not as the Imrei Shefer 1:19 quoted also in Ky there.)

      Now although we don't pasken like Zohar (and Ari) in a question that is quite clear from Shulchan Aruch & poskim otherwise - but this isn't csav ari !!

      Delete
  2. I've heard many of the Rabbonim that are mumchim in STaM here in Eretz Yisrael say not to change the csav of the Shem even when writing Csav Ari. I never spoke to R' Shammai about this (since i thought it was pashut that you write the Shem like Ari as well and he mentioned before those writing Csav Ari, make the Shem also according to Ari.) I will have to verify this...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yehoshua please clarify what you wrote:
      "Rabbonim that are mumchim in STaM here in Eretz Yisrael say not to change the csav of the Shem even when writing Csav Ari" -
      what did you mean not to change? not to change from ari? or from regular BY csav?

      Delete
  3. I agree with Yehoshuah, it is not uncommon outside the chassidishe world to see arizal ksav without shemos al pi kaballas haari

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What is csav ha'ari doing outside the chasidish world?

      Delete
    2. I don't know about israel but here most judaica shops sell arizal ksav and they are not going to chassidishe market ie chabad, belz, they are going to the velt.

      Delete
  4. A respected sofer here in Eretz Yisrael once told me that there are some Rabbonim in STaM that say to write the Shem normally according to the Beis Yosef even when writing csav Ari...I don't want to say any names since I'd like to verify this first. But like Eli points out I can't imagine this being so far off from a real practice...

    ReplyDelete
  5. Ok, but it would still be incorrect to call it ksav Ari. Perhaps Ari style etc...
    I wrote about this on this forum in the past. Indeed there a tons of cheap mezuzahs which are written quickly in Arizal style yet they do not have Shemos al pi Arizal, those are Arizal style.

    ReplyDelete
  6. see also
    http://hebrewstam.blogspot.co.il/2012/03/blog-post_30.html

    ReplyDelete
  7. is ari style kosher lechatchillah? I would venture to say it is as it is not a halachic consideration, rather a kaballistic one....

    ReplyDelete
  8. Actually as posted here they are 2 inyanim.I saw tefilin written by reb nesanel-the sofer the chofetz chaim wanted tefilin from and it is clear that he wrote the shaimos al pi kabala -which is in the order specified al pi kabala and then finished it to look like the regular letters.
    If anybody has access to a klauzenberg sofer it would be interesting the minhag ,since they use ksav beis yosef for sifrei torah(as ksav ari was meant for tefilin only(clearly specified in shulchan aruch harav).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My opinion and understanding of csav ha'ari is that there is no meaning to tefilin written in letters formed as csav ari, if the shemos are not written according to the kabala. - this isn't csav ha'ari !!

      But the opposite is pashut, that according Ari in sefer tora although there is no kabalastic demand to specific shapes of the letters [as you wrote] the shemos must be done according to kabala.

      Delete
    2. "But the opposite is pashut, that according Ari in sefer tora although there is no kabalastic demand to specific shapes of the letters [as you wrote] the shemos must be done according to kabala."

      Would that not seem to indicate that the shapes of the letters and the Kavanos of the Shem Havaya are two totally separate inyanim?

      Delete
    3. We often do one thing according to one person's opinion while following a different person's opinion regarding other things -- even within the same item.

      For instance, in Rashi's Tefillin we do things that he disagreed with, and the same is the case in Rabbeinu Tam's Tefillin.

      Delete
    4. OK the argument is legitimate,

      but what is the status of a beautiful csav beis yosef that the sofer wasn't mekadesh lshem kedushas tefilin ?!
      Is the status of the csav BY? or not?

      Delete

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