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Monday, September 3, 2012

Difference between computer programs

Hi Chevreh,

I currently have Tor's Tikkun Sofrim program VERSION 8 which I use with a flatbed scanner and do the line art tiff images.

I know Tor has upgraded to a camera system which has been used for the past few years.

I'm wondering if the new system is worth paying the extra money for. I would greatly appreciate feedback from anyone with experience using the two systems.

Thanks!

19 comments:

  1. RABOSAI,
    You can now get the vaad mishmeres stam system for FREE.ALL YOU NEED IS A BLACK AND WHITE SCANNER .
    You pay per use a very low fee.You can request he should point out tzuras osios problems and he will do it. The way it works is you get a station # which generates codes you scan press send to vaad and a few hours later you receive the reports.I have lost many nights of sleep for missing a mistake the Tor program showed but i missed.
    You can email Rabbi Granetstien for setup.
    stam4@bezeqint.net

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    1. how much do they charge for a sefer torah, if you do the scanning?

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  2. I don’t do computer checking myself, but i forwarded this query to someone who does. He said, "The camera is ten thousand times better. And quicker. Period. (Although for NEW parashiyos only, the old scanner was easier.)”

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    1. the mishmeres program is more reliable PERIOD

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  3. Where can you get the TOR program?

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  4. I had the old Tor program for years. it could only be used with 2 scanners that were not flatbed. The maker of the scanners shut down and the scanners were no longer made years ago. I'm not familiar with being able to use a flatbed scanner. I have been using the program with the camera for some years and it produces a far superior image and hence, less results, the vast majority of which are nothing. I'm not ging to take sides on which program is better. There are a 3 organizations I know of with their own program and the Tor program. If used properly and the results reviewed with care, they all work well. There was some machlokes some years ago but that has subsided and all the programs are accepted. Anyone checking and every program has been caught overlooking mistakes. I had a very reliable source (never had anyone come back with a textual psul in a sefer he checked for me in 15 years) check a sefer 2x only for someone else, using another program catch a mix up between a Dalet and hei. it was checked a 4th time by another person using the same program as the 2nd person and he found a missing vav. (Don't ask why the sefer went through 4 computer exams!)

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    1. wow. sounds like quite a story.

      You definitely need to do it twice to be accurate. I often do it 3 times and prefer thatthe last report has no (significant) heoros, which is the report I give to the customer.

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  6. Unless the sofer is muchzak to have almost no mistakes, 2 computer exams are really needed, one after all the tikkunim are done. Sometimes the sofer makes new mistakes when making corrections so this 2nd computer check will deal with that as well. In addition, 2 quality manual exams are very important. If the computer picks up problems other than textual errors, they are mostly nothing and the small amout that are actual problems should be treated as an added plus to the manual exams.

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  10. The purpose of the computer program is for textual errors. If the results are reviewed properly it is in fact more reliable than a human.
    As far as checking for touching letters, spacing issues, missing tagin, severed letters, it may not be relied upon. Even so, it does pick up lots of potential things which, upon review, most turn out to be nothing. However, it is worth going over them for the few problems it does catch that are overlooked during the REQUIRED manual exam.
    I don't see how it would be used for hiddur purposes. The program can't differentiate between a lechatchila and mehudar letter unless it may pick up a missing tag.
    Based on my experience, a Torah (preferably 2x) and even parshios and mezuzahs must be computer checked for textual errors and one who sells without it is negligent.

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  11. Correct my wording was not so exact, I meant that this is secondary to the main checking which is manual. Computer checking is however very helpful and therefore should be used but it cannot be solely in place of a professional manual checking.

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  12. I had a sefer sitting in my safe that i misplaced the computer report and as you all know you cant sell a sefer without the report.Lucky was i that the sofer used The Vaads program-I just scanned 2 columns and emailed the m to the vaad the next day i had the report now that is worth everything.
    How many of you have found a mistake after TOR and when trying to get the original report got the answer oh i just changed my hard drive this week etc.

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  13. Mistakes are occasionally found after everyone. The program is not in question. It is the one reviewing the results that overlooks the problem. It is pretty much expected that something will be caught after the 1st computer check, unless the sofer only has a handful of mistakes. The results that we provide to the customers is after the 2nd exam. No doubt that having access to the results, if need be, is nice. However,. at least for me, most of my customers do not ask for the results.
    For computer checking of mezuzahs and parshios, there is nothing like having your own program, allowing you to check anytime. I have sofrim who come by unannounced wanting to know if I can check 1-2 mezuzahs right now or I get an urgent order and need to check 5 mezuzahs or 1 pair of parshios. I can do it on the spot.

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  14. Ok but do you not anyways catch all of these problems anyways manually?

    I feel if a magiah relies too much on the program, it could cause a level of laxness in the obligatory manual checking, what are your thoughts?

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  15. If the computer program is correctly used - for finding textual errors then this will not make a magia lax when checking tzuros osios.
    Many today rely mainly, if not exclusively, on the computer for catching textual error since the fact is that is if clearly more reliable. My policy is that new parshios and mezuzahs are checked by 2 magiim, at least one of whom checks for chaser v'yeser as well, in addition to the computer check. They don't know if I've already checked by computer so they are careful as they don't want to be caught having missed a missing/extra/word letter or misspelled word.

    On sifrei Torah, the computer program usually picks up some tzuros os problems, touching/severed letters, missing tagin but is treated as an added plus. A good magia doesn't assume the computer will find something that he didn't nor allow it to affect their work. The program may pick up some non textual errors, but it will or can just as easily miss as well so it is very unreliable. What it does catch is treated as an added plus.

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