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Wednesday, September 5, 2012

The Zichron Eliyohu re my previous post



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15 comments:

  1. Eli thanks, I also saw the Zicaron Eliyahu inside (p. 20-21).
    I disagree with the their svara, that this is kosher lechatchila.
    The problem I arose is that the titura may not be considered fit for the parshiyos even in the miksha type - because this isnt a bayis according to the hallacha, since the ribua isnt the same as the bayis above (which b'pashtus is meakev - that the ribua of the bayis be equal all the highth).
    The only reason that b'shaas hadchak you may machshir, is according to the svaros that accept rov of the parsha in the bayis (see Zicaron Eliyahu p. 19), and according to this svara even if the or was attached to the bottom and even not me'ubad leshma you can meikal.
    That is why I wrote only b'shaas hadchak hagadol.

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    1. many of the pre war dakkos worn by gedolim and heilige chassidim the yad parsha goes rightd down to the floor of the titurah, with a nice part in the titurah. How do you explain that this was so common if its so problematic?

      How do you explain that 90% of gassos batim today that I check the yad parshiyos stick a little into the titurah?

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    2. Possibly the "or echod" of these old batim extended all the way down below the extra titura pieces, and was not "or echod im hatitura". This was very common in pre-war dakos where they were mehader to have the largest possible parshios.

      In Shulchan Aruch Harav 32:77 it says:
      הבתים הם הנקראים תפילין ולא התיתורא
      which implies that the parshios must be completely in the bayis.

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    3. "which b'pashtus is meakev - that the ribua of the bayis be equal all the highth"
      can you please give a mokor for that?
      becuse i heard from rabbi zirkind otherwise.

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  2. I dont know the origin of these tefilin, and what people [batim machers and magihim] do, is no proof to what the hallacha is.

    It seems clear from the SA AR that the whole parsha must be completely in its bayis. Whoever wants to be matir the parsha outside of the bayis, has to bring proof.

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    1. Maybe the svara is that the batim in the times of the A"R (Dakkos) the bayis was made with one piece and the titurah was made of another piece glued on (simillar to how commercial dakkos are made today).

      However today with gassos, which are very meaty, you have a few mms of hide which is in the titura and made of the same ohr of the bayis, so the upper titurah made of the same piece of the bayis is considered bayis

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  3. It is well known that unless stated otherwise, the psakim in Zichron Eliyahu follow Rav Elyashiv. Rav Morgenstern is a major posek and was a mekurav to Rav Elyashiv. It is widely accepted among Ashkenazim (I'm not familiar with what Chabad holds on this matter) that, in fact, if the ksav of the shel yad parshios sit within the upper titura it is mehudar and opposite the filler glued to the top is lechatchila. 90% of the batim are NOT made with the ketzitza deep enough to contain the entire ksav of the parshios hence will in fact rest within at least the upper titura. Those that want it to fit in all the way must special order the shel yad or deepen it, which I do, upon request.
    Rav Vosner does write that it is bedieved and Rav Ovadia's lashon isn't clear if he means bedieved or pasul. The sefer Yerios Shlomo discusses it.
    The parshios shel rosh is more chamur as can be seen in the Zichron Eliyahu.

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    1. According to Zichron Eliyahu if the parshios she rosh go into the titura it is kosher bedieved. This shouldn't be a common problem with standard (22mm tall) parshios shel rosh. However, when we do find a shallow chalal we deepen it as necessary.

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  4. As mentioned previously in this blog I have spent a lot of time discussing this issue with poskim as well as batim machers.

    I personally asked rav Moshe Shuel Klien of rav Vosner's beis din, who told me that in the shel yad if the parsha sticks a little into the titurah it is still kosher mehudar.

    I personally asked rabbi Zirkind for a Chabad shittah (this was about 7 years ago), he told me that there is no problem as long the parshiyos do not extend past the filler (extra piece of leather inserted in the titurah) but if they are in the same piece as the bayis , even if it is a little in the titura it is no problem.

    My policy: I do not say anything to the customer re lack of hiddur unless the shel yad sticks down so far that it reaches past the "filler".

    If I get a special request that someone wants the entire yad 100% inside the bayis itself I order from a special bayis from the batim macher. However I insist that lechatchillah the bayis is made taller and not hollowed out. Hollowing out the roof of a bayis is dangerous - it could open up a fold and make a hole without realizing!


    However in the shel rosh ANYTHING IN THE TITURAH AT ALL IS PROBLEMATIC. I often measure with a digital caliper to make sure the parshiyos are completely in the bayis.

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    1. Just curious. Why do you need a caliper to see if the parshios are completely in the bayis. Why not just look?

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    2. Its hard to judge sometimes by the eye. Sometimes they look low, like they might be a little in the titurah, but if you measure the uvei hatiturah elyona on the outside and then you stick the back part of the caliper in the chalal until it reaches the parsha and that way you can measure the space between the bottom of the parsha and the end of the titurah elyona. If the measurement of the 2nd reading is more than the first, you know you are definitely OK.

      Obviously im most cases you can see that they are deep inside.

      I use the caliper usually in the case where I have small batim (size 31 or lower) and I am putting normal sized parshiyos inside. Or even with normal medium sized batim but the parshiyos are extea large (Chabad) size.

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  5. For clarification, there is no need for the klaf below the ksav to fit into the ketzitza, for one who is makpid on this. As long as the ksav fits that is all that is necessary. of course we are usually talking about 1mm or so of klaf at the bottom but sometimes that makes the difference.

    I've deepened plenty of shel yads and with the right tools and experience the risk is close to zero. There are many batim that are 35-37mm tall yet the inside chalal will not hold the parshios so they do have to be special ordered with a chalal of 32-33mm for standard parshios.

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    1. I used to deepen bu using a sanding disc from a dremmel. Even if you do it gently and with experience, how would you even know if you opened up a fold?

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  6. Is it not true that in some very old vintage tefillas shel rosh there were sometimes placed parashiot written in one single long scroll? These ondulated within the chalalim and the separation among the 4 parashiot was made by the gid between the batim.

    In such a scenario, only the written part of the parashiot was placed inside the challal. The blank part between the parashiot had to, by force, descend below the challalim.

    It appears to me that there is ground to be flexible in most cases that we note parashiot sticking out a bit even from the challalim of the shel rosh at the bottom. In most cases the part of parchment sticking at the bottom involve the margins were there is no writing anyways.

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  7. Alberto, as I mentioned, the issue is only the ksav going into the chalal

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