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Wednesday, March 11, 2015

negiya vov nun


12 comments:

  1. Replies
    1. You mean not fixable?

      My thoughts were if the heads are touching it would definitely be a shinuy tzurah and a kosher tof.

      But tagin touching like that? Definitely not a tof. More like a ches possibly? Not really because of the nun.

      I fixed it.

      To be sure I took a photo (posted) prior to fixing. I emailed a Rov who said it was muttar to fix.

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  2. This is a serious shaila and I would be noteh lifsol without hearing otherwise from Rav Friedlander or another posek with equally broad STaM shoulders. (Rav MS Klein, Rav Shamai...)

    Kesiva Tama says if one wrote a Ches like this it's pasul b/c it looks like a Sav and says it's a kol sheken from a Ches in which both raglayim have a moshav going outwards which the Keses and Mikdash Me'at pasul. He says if one wrote a Sav like this it would be a shailas chacham.

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    2. Sfeikos Hasofer pasels such a Ches as well b/c it looks like a Sav. However, Rav YM Stern holds that such a Ches is kosher (which is a chiddush) so it seems based on the above that "mima nafshaf", our case is either a chashash of a Sav or can be considered a kosher Ches.
      Yerios Shlomo brings down that such a Ches is pasul (not because it;s a kosher Sav as it's enough to be a shiniu tzura) and brings Shevet Halevi, he should have a refua shleima! who leaves as a tzarich iyun. The Yerios Shlomo does however say that a tinok should be asked when a Vav./Zayin touch a Nun via the tagin, as in the case under discussion.

      While there is a tzad to ask a tinok, considering that some seem to consider it a kosher Sav or Ches, a shailas chacham should be asked as R' Eli did. I hope to ask Rav Friedlander for my own edification.

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  3. From what I see, I agree with Eli, and the above is certainly fixable. It is not a Kosher TAV, and neither a Kosher CHET.

    However, it should be first shown to a Tinok. Once the Tinok reads "VAV" and "NUN" there should be no reason to prohibit separating the tagin.

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    1. The fact that it is not a Kosher different letter does not mean that this one has a Tzuras haOs. Without Tzuras haOs, any repair is Shelo Kesidran.

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    2. Agreed, that is precisely the case. Therefore, the role of the Tinok is to determine if it has Tzurat HaOt. If the Tinok reads properly, then we can carry on with separating the tagin.

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  4. @Aharon:
    So why would you not leave it up to a tinok?

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    1. Some poskim consider this a kosher ches. The kesiva Tama says if one wrote a Sav this way it's a shailas Chacham (some achronim machshir as a Sav). Hence, let's leave the determination as to whether its a psul or a shailas tinok to the chacham.

      Frankly I'm surprised R' Eli got a psak to separate without at least asking a tinok. I'm not at all surprised that Avi H's tinok read it as a Sav. (Even if we'd get a psak to ask a tinok and he read it correctly I question if it would be lechatchila. I hope to get clarity on all this next week.

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  5. I have had such a shayla and the tinok read it as a tav.

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  6. I have had such a shayla and the tinok read it as a tav.

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